Transcript of David Schwartz and Evan Chandler Taped Conversation

SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

DAVID SCHWARTZ, AN INDIVIDUAL, )

PLAINTIFF, ) CASE NO.

VS. ) SC

EVAN CHANDLER, AN INDIVIDUAL, AND )

DOES THROUGH , INCLUSIVE, )

DEFENDANTS. )

TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO CASSETTE MARKED

EXHIBIT NO.

D. SCHWARTZ AND E. CHANDLER

FILE NO. TPA.MK

CONVERSATION

between Dave Schwartz and Evan Chandler:

MR. CHANDLER: — discuss why it might be harmful. Suppose I’m right? I mean if Michael loves [tape irregularity] Lisa at least want to hear my opinion about why what’s going on could be potentially harmful? If you love somebody, you don’t want them to get hurt.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you want to talk it in front of Jordy, about that?

MR. CHANDLER: Huh?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you want to talk about that in front of Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, yeah, absolutely. He has to be there.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: He has to be there, and one of the reasons that he has to be there is because he’s always gonna remember it. Somebody has to be the — there’s gotta be some one person that later on in life he can look back on and kind of pattern himself after someone or have some structure for his own existence, based on — he’ll look at me, and he’ll say, “Yeah. He was honest, he had integrity, he had respect. I could trust him. He never lied to me,” all that kind of stuff. He may hate me now. He may not be able to articulate all of those things in his own head right now, but when he sees it, it’ll be in his head, and when he’s old enough there will be those things that will be important to him. Hopefully I’ll be able to portray those things to him, because I think they’re important.

I also think it’s incredibly important to have somebody else in your life that really loves you and you really love them because if you’re [tape irregularity] happy. I’ve never seen a single solo, isolated human being who was truly happy –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and that’s what’s going to happen to Jordy. I think that’s June’s situation.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: June has nobody. You tell me who June has. You tell me who June has who really loves her, who she really loves back, you can’t think of one person.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I can.

MR. CHANDLER: Who?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Gloria.

MR. CHANDLER: Gloria.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Really.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible.)

MR. SCHWARTZ: Gloria, Nadine or Florence. She’s pretty close with her friends.

MR. CHANDLER: Nah, she’s –

MR. SCHWARTZ: She’s — wait.

MR. CHANDLER: She believes that –

MR. SCHWARTZ: She’s close with you.

MR. CHANDLER: — four or five cups of caffeine in the morning and gets on the phone and yaps (inaudible) all day, you commiserate about their miseries –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But, you know, here’s the whole thing. We can’t, you know, I can’t put her down that all she’s doing is hanging out. It’s not so horrible.

MR. CHANDLER: That what?

MR. SCHWARTZ: That, you know, I mean, she’s into hanging out.

MR. CHANDLER: Hanging out is okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I know. She’s –

MR. CHANDLER: Hanging out’s kind of a benign thing. She’s not hanging out anymore. When she stopped hanging out –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and became actively destructive in Jordy’s life is when I stepped in and when I decided I have to do something about it. I tried to talk to her about it, Dave, on several occasions.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, we know she’s hard to talk to.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, if you could — if you could — yes. I mean, that’s unquestionable. She is impossible to talk to. And I’ve never really — I mean, I’ve gotten angry with her many times and –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — [tape irregularity] long as you’ve stepped in –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: — the issue has never involved potentially harming Jordy for the rest of his life –

MR. SCHWARTZ: [Tape irregularity.]

MR. CHANDLER: — issues over Jordy before that I’ve backed down –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — because you asked me to or whatever the reason was –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I’ve never been — I’ve never been that set on pursuing it until now because I truly believe this will damage him for the rest of his life. And she will not — and I’ve told her that, and I’ve tried to talk to her about that –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and she’s not willing to talk to me about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She doesn’t even want to hear what might be harming him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She doesn’t want to even know — she doesn’t want to hear any words.

MR. SCHWARTZ: What if –

MR. CHANDLER: “Get out of my face. Don’t even mention that.” That’s not an issue for her. I mean, what kind of person is that? If — I stopped taking that personally.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, we all have different ways of coping.

MR. CHANDLER: You see, as an adult, coping’s no excuse. That’s like driving drunk and saying, “I’m sorry, but I didn’t realize there was a law against driving drunk” and you just ran on the sidewalk. The fact is you’re a responsible adult. You’re supposed to have some sense and judgment, and that’s how it’s going to go down.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. How about if you, June and I get together?

MR. CHANDLER: No. Why do you keep doing that?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because I don’t — I don’t want to subject Jordy to this until — I mean, I feel very uncomfortable –

MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you this way: I have a set routine of words that I’m going to go in there that have been rehearsed and I’m going to say.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay? Because I don’t want to say anything that could be used against me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So I know exactly what I can say. That’s why I’m bringing the tape recorder.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I have some things on paper to show a few people –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and that’s it. My whole part is going to take two or three minutes, and I’m going to turn around [tape irregularity], and that’s it. There’s not going to be anything said, other than what I’ve been told to say –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I’m going to turn around and leave, and they’re going to have a decision to make.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And based on that decision, I’ll decide whether or not we’re going to talk again or whether it’s going to go further.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I have to make a phone call. As soon as I leave the house, I get on the telephone.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I make a phone call.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Say “Go” or I say, “Don’t go yet,” and that’s –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — the way it’s gonna to be. I’ve been told what to do, and I have to do it. I’m not — I happen to know what’s going to be going on, see? They don’t have to say anything to me. [Tape irregularity] “you have refused to listen to me. Now you’re going to have to listen to me. This is my position. Give it a thought.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: “Think it over.” I’m not saying anything bad about anybody, okay? I’ve got it all on paper.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m going to hand out the paper so that I don’t inadvertently [tape irregularity], handing out the paper, “Michael, here’s your paper. June, here’s your paper.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: “Compare papers. Read this whole thing. This is my feelings about it. Do you want to talk further? We’ll talk again.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: “If you don’t” [tape irregularity] — but, see, all I’m trying to do now, they have forced me to go [tape irregularity] on paper and give it to them to read –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — because [tape irregularity]. I mean, isn’t that pitiful? Now, why would they want to cut me out, to go this far, spend this much money, spend so much time in my life crying, being away from my practice, not paying [tape irregularity] everybody else? Why would they want to put me through that? And I made it very clear to June that she was putting me through that because I didn’t want any misunderstandings. I’ve done everything I could to appeal to her. (Inaudible) is cold and heart- – absolutely cold and heartless. That’s all –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, maybe on the surface it appears like that, but I –

MR. CHANDLER: I know on the surface June is charming –

MR. SCHWARTZ: No, no. I think on the surface it might appear cold, but I don’t — I don’t agree with that.

MR. CHANDLER: Dave, “Go fuck yourself” is not a surface reaction.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Have you ever — you mean you have never done that, right?

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) and they say “Go fuck yourself,” that’s not a surface –

MR. SCHWARTZ: You’ve never done it?

MR. CHANDLER: — sorry.

MR. SCHWARTZ: You’ve never done it? I mean, have you ever got pissed at a friend and gotten in an argument for three weeks?

MR. CHANDLER: No, no, no.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Never, ever?

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) — like that, Dave, not consistently like that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) — so far as to go to say, “Okay. Forget about me. This is what’s going on with Jordan. This is my concern,” and have her say “Go fuck yourself” again. So [tape irregularity] there I said, “This is not a human being I’m dealing with anymore.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me ask you this — I mean, did you give Jordy any ultimatums?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Because, see, that’s how he feels trapped, I think.

MR. CHANDLER: Too bad.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, why — I mean –

MR. CHANDLER: All he has to do is talk to me about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I know, but how can you — I mean, you know what you could do — I mean, couldn’t you approach it like saying, “Jordy, this is how I feel. This is why communications is important. We gotta discuss this.”

MR. CHANDLER: This is what I said to Jordy. I said, “What if I asked you not to do

something?” That’s how I put it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: He said, “I wouldn’t care.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s what he said.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, what’s wrong with that?

MR. CHANDLER: What’s wrong?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I mean, what is wrong with that?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, let me ask you this: Never in his life, ever, would he have — did he ever respond that way or would he have ever responded that way –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — which means that something has happened inside of him and in his life that is now making him respond to me in a totally different way. What has happened to him? His mother’s changed, and Michael’s in his life, and you weren’t there to balance it out. And that’s it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, and I wasn’t there, and you’re right.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I wasn’t there to discuss it with him.

MR. CHANDLER: So the whole thing happened.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: And that’s it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: So blame me.

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, I’m not blaming you.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But it is my fault.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible).

MR. SCHWARTZ: It’s my fault. I wasn’t there to –

MR. CHANDLER: No, no. You don’t understand. We’re gonna see whose fault it is. And I’m gonna tell you: It isn’t up to you to decide whose fault it is or up to me to decide whose fault it is. Other people who are trained to [tape irregularity] whose fault it is are going to make that decision, and I’ll bet you anything that they don’t decide that it’s your fault. You’re not going to get blamed, and you can go and say whatever you want. No one’s [tape irregularity] they may say, “That’s very nice. Get the fuck out of here, and let’s get down to the real issues,” but that’s it. That’s what’s going to happen. I’m not getting blamed and you’re not getting blamed. And that’s — I mean –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But no one should get blamed. I mean –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) talking about bottom line because that’s what it’s really going to come down to –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — bottom line, no one’s gonna give a shit about you in this issue.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So when you tell me that I should blame you, that’s not the bottom line. That’s not how it’s going to be seen (simultaneous, inaudible).

MR. SCHWARTZ: But does there have to be where someone’s at fault? Can’t it be where we just work it out?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you see — yeah. That’s why I tried to get in touch with them, to (simultaneous, inaudible) work it out –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, well, but that’s — wait.

MR. CHANDLER: — but they don’t want to talk to me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Well, that’s not true. That is not true.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) till tomorrow –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Have you ever gone through a period where you just didn’t — wait. Of course you have. Of course you have.

MR. CHANDLER: Dave –

MR. SCHWARTZ: When I screamed at Monique to get you to call me.

MR. CHANDLER: So what? That was one day. Two days.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But it didn’t matter — it can’t count the days.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, I have to count the days because I can’t let it go on forever. By the way, they’re going on tour on August th. They’re going to be gone. They’re going to be out of the country –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — for four months.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Is that bad?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, I’m not going to be able to communicate with them about this when they’re gone, am I?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, but you think that –

MR. CHANDLER: By the way, they’re not going.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They don’t know that yet, but they are not going.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So, I mean, especially if they don’t show up tomorrow, they’re definitely not going. They’ll be lucky if Michael even –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Let me ask you — let me ask you this –

MR. CHANDLER: — tour (inaudible) get canceled.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me — let me ask you this: I mean, why can’t you meet — why can’t we meet after I get off work?

MR. CHANDLER: Because –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, why not? What’s the difference?

MR. CHANDLER: Seems to me it’s not important enough for you to take off work to be –

MR. SCHWARTZ: It is important enough, but I still –

MR. CHANDLER: Fuck your job.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s still going to be there at :. This whole thing’s going to take five minutes.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’ve already told you I have — I’m not allowed to say anything more –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — than I’ve already prepared. It’s on paper.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Is it your –

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not going in to –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Is it because of your attorney?

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because of your attorney?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why don’t we meet at your attorney’s office?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s something we can do if we get past tomorrow.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: He’s willing to meet with them. Right now he’d like to kill them all. I picked the nastiest mother-fucker I could find.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: The only reason that I’m meeting with them tomorrow is, the real fact of the matter is –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — because of Monique.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Monique begged me to do it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She said, “You’re out of control” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Can Monique be there?

MR. CHANDLER: Tomorrow?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She wanted to be there, but –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I want her to be there.

MR. CHANDLER: I wouldn’t let her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why? Why not?

MR. CHANDLER: Because June hates Monique.

MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s not true.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you know something?

MR. SCHWARTZ: That is not true –

MR. CHANDLER: Now –

MR. SCHWARTZ: — at all.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, really! Well, then that makes Jordy a liar, and that makes Michael a liar.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: They both told me that Monique — that June –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. You can’t see that whole thing?

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s woman jealousy.

MR. CHANDLER: I don’t care what –

MR. SCHWARTZ: It doesn’t matter –

MR. CHANDLER: The problem is you’re in love with her so you keep on making excuses.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not in love with her anymore. I don’t even like her anymore.

MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t know about female jealousy?

MR. CHANDLER: I don’t care about that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: That

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has nothing –

MR. CHANDLER: (Inaudible) Dave. That’s pathologic. I don’t want that affecting –

MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s not pathologic. That is the bottom line.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) pathologic. I don’t care what the reason is. I don’t care. I’m not playing psychiatrist and analyzing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But why wouldn’t you want Monique there? I would feel much more comfortable.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible), that’s why.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

MR. CHANDLER: Because June hates her, so I don’t want to –

MR. SCHWARTZ: She does not hate her.

MR. CHANDLER: Of course she hates her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: She totally respects her and doesn’t hate her.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then, Jordy is a liar and Michael (inaudible) –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait.

MR. CHANDLER: — because they told me verbatim, together –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah?

MR. CHANDLER: — that June hates Monique. In fact, they went even further and told me several of the things that June said about Monique.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay? Now, maybe they went back and told June that Monique said things about her and –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — (inaudible) lied. Maybe they’re lying. I don’t know. But knowing June, I don’t think that they lied. I think they’re telling me the truth.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And I want Monique out of this completely.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Because all that will happen is that June will convince Jordy that Monique’s a bad person and by her presence there she must have put me up to this whole thing –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and June will fabricate some great lie –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Ahhh.

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) I’m only going there because of Monique, because, to tell you the truth, Dave, it would be a lot easier for me and a lot more satisfying –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to see everybody get destroyed –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — like they’ve destroyed me, but it would be a lot easier. And Monique just kept telling me, “You don’t want to really do this,” and she finally [tape irregularity] for the sake of everything that we’ve all had in the past –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to give it one more try, and that’s the only reason, because this attorney I found — I mean, I interviewed several, and I picked the nastiest son of a bitch

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — I could find, and all he wants to do is get this out in the public as fast as he can, as big as he can –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and humiliate as many people as he can, and he’s got a bad [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s good?

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) he’s costing me a lot of money.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s good?

MR. CHANDLER: I think that’s great. I think it’s terrific. The best. Because when somebody — when somebody tells you that they don’t want to talk to you –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — you have to talk to them –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — you have to get their attention. It’s a matter of life and death. That’s how I’m taking it. I have to talk to them.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: This is life and death for my son. I have to get their attention. If I don’t get it, if I haven’t gotten it on the phone and I don’t get it tomorrow –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — this guy will certainly get it. That’s the next step. And you want to know something? I even have somebody after him if he doesn’t [tape irregularity]. But I don’t want [tape malfunctioned]. I’m not kidding. I mean what I told you before.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s true. I mean, it could be a massacre if I don’t get what I want. But I do believe this person will get what he wants.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So he would just really love [tape irregularity] nothing better than to have this go forward. He is nasty, he is mean –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — he is very smart [tape irregularity], and he’s hungry for the publicity [tape irregularity] better for him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And that’s where it’ll go –

MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t think everyone loses?

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) totally humiliate him in every way –

MR. SCHWARTZ: That — everyone doesn’t lose in that?

MR. CHANDLER: That’s not the issue. See, the issue is that if I have to go that far –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — I can’t stop and think “Who wins and who loses?”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: All I can think about is I only have one goal, and the goal is to get their attention –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — so that [tape irregularity] concerns are, and as long as they don’t want to talk to me, I can’t tell them what my concerns are, so I have to go step by step, each time escalating the attention-getting mechanism, and that’s all I regard him as, as an attention-getting mechanism. Unfortunately, after that, it’s totally out of [tape irregularity]. It’ll take on so much momentum of its own that it’s going to be out of all our control. It’s going to be monumentally huge, and I’m not going to have any way to stop it. No one else is either at that point. I mean, once I make that phone call, this guy’s just going to destroy everybody in site in any devious, nasty, cruel way that he can do it. And I’ve given him full authority to do that. To go beyond tomorrow, that would mean I have done every possible thing in my individual power to tell them to sit down and talk to me; and if they still [tape irregularity], I got to escalate the attention-getting chanism. He’s the next one. I can’t go to somebody nice [tape irregularity]. It doesn’t work with them. I already found that out. Get some niceness and just go fuck yourself.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Basically, what they have to know, ultimately, is that their lives are over, if they don’t sit down. One way or the other, it’ll either go to the next step or the [tape irregularity]. I’m not stopping until I get their attention. Do I [tape irregularity] the only goal is right now I have to do what I think is best for Jordy –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I think what’s going on now is bad for Jordy, and therefore any alternative is better. If I’m wrong, they should sit down, and they should tell me why I’m wrong.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But –

MR. SCHWARTZ: So wouldn’t you sit down with me, and we could discuss it first?

MR. CHANDLER: No, because you don’t know the issues.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but you could tell me.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) totally ignorant of all the issues. No. There’s really no way you could relate these to somebody, you know.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah? Well, sure you could.

MR. CHANDLER: Like it’ll get related. It’ll get related, you know. You’ll see it. You’ll see it, and it’s not going to be up for me or you to decide.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Can you meet him here at work?

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, no. I’m going to meet at the house.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why can’t you meet here?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, for one thing, ichael has to be there.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Michael will come.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) won’t be at Rent a Wreck.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Michael would come here.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, how do you know that?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I’ll see. I mean, if he’ll come here, will you do it here?

MR. CHANDLER: No. Why?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because it’s easier for me.

MR. CHANDLER: So you could be at work?

MR. SCHWARTZ: No. So I don’t have to leave.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) signals.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

MR. CHANDLER: You keep giving me these –

MR. SCHWARTZ: It’s not crossed signals. I’m telling you it’s — I’m here every second. It’s difficult to get away.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you have to get your priorities –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but my priority is this, but, I mean, you can compromise for me.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) tell me this is very difficult choice, you know, your children or your work.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Hey, it’s not a difficult choice.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But it’s just –

MR. CHANDLER: — the issue, then. Be it –

MR. SCHWARTZ: It makes it — wait. What’s the difference –

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) work by : o’clock.

MR. SCHWARTZ: What is the difference for you? I mean, it makes it easier for me. Is it different for you?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Why is it different?

MR. CHANDLER: What if I told you their house was wired?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Does that make a difference?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not saying it is.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m just saying, “What if it was?”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, well –

MR. CHANDLER: Would that — would you — could you see the [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Then you want to record it.

MR. CHANDLER: Let’s just say that it is.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Let’s just say that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not saying it is.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: But let’s just say that it was. Okay? That would make a difference. (Inaudible)?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. You got to do me one favor.

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. The way we’ve just talked is completely — the way you’ve sounded is completely different than when I talked to you the first time. I mean, you gotta be –

MR. CHANDLER: Well, (inaudible) talking tomorrow, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

MR. CHANDLER: I told you, it’s all on paper.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s why I’m bringing a tape recorder.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but are you going to be calm like this?

MR. CHANDLER: I have nothing to say.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not going to be calm. I’m not going to be anything. I’m not going to be — I’m going to be totally void of anything.

I’m just going to say, “Look. Here’s something for you guys to read. You read it. You think it over.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: “If you want to sit down and talk, we can all meet in my attorney’s office.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: “If you want to tell me to go fuck myself, then just let me know that” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — “and I’ll let him know that’s what your feelings are.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, why do you –

MR. CHANDLER: — and that has to — that has to happen before : o’clock tomorrow. They have to make that decision –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And let me ask you this –

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) don’t hear from them about it, then the wheels start –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why do you have to have Jordy there, if all we’re going to do is read it?

MR. CHANDLER: I tried to explain that to you.

MR. SCHWARTZ: No. If we have to read something.

MR. CHANDLER: Because I explained that to you. I want him to see how I’m behaving.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I want him to see how I’m acting.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you have to have Michael there?

MR. CHANDLER: What’s that beeping going on? Do you hear that?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Are you recording this?

MR. SCHWARTZ: No.

MR. CHANDLER: Do you hear the beeping?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, let’s hang up.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Bye.

(Tape , Side B begins:)

CONVERSATION between Dave Schwartz and Evan Chandler:

(Dial tone.)

MR. SCHWARTZ: Hey, Ev.

MR. CHANDLER: Hi, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: How you doing? Thanks for calling me back.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. I’m in the car. I’m on the way home.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: Where are you?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I’m at work.

MR. CHANDLER: You’re at [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: You want to come by here?

MR. CHANDLER: No. I’m wasted, Man.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but I’m — we gotta talk this out.

MR. CHANDLER: Nothing to talk about.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Of course we can talk it out.

MR. CHANDLER: Just be there tomorrow if you want to hear what I want to say. That’s all. And if they’re not there, then there’s nothing that anybody has to say, and that’s the end of it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me ask you this:

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

MR. SCHWARTZ: What if like, say, June and I are there?

MR. CHANDLER: No good.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: They all have to be there.

MR. SCHWARTZ: They all have to be there. In fact, if anybody were missing, it would be June that I wouldn’t care the most.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Who?

MR. CHANDLER: June. The one that I care the most about –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. How about if Jordy and I go?

MR. CHANDLER: No. Jordy and you?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And me?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: No.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: That’s silly. No. Michael has to be there. Michael has to be there. He’s the main one. He’s the one I want.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think he’s a bad guy?

MR. CHANDLER: Michael?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: He’s an evil guy. He’s worse than bad.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you believe that?

MR. CHANDLER: Huh?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why do you believe that?

MR. CHANDLER: I have the evidence to prove it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You’ll believe it, too, when you hear –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Let me ask you something. I mean, you trust me, right?

MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you this way, Dave. Nobody in this world was allowed to come between this family of June, me and Jordy. That was the hard [tape irregularity] be the opposite. That’s evil. That’s one reason why he’s evil. I spoke to him about it, Dave. I even told him that [tape irregularity] the family.

MR. SCHWARTZ: When did you talk to him?

MR. CHANDLER: About that?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Months ago. When I first met him I told him that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s the law. That’s the first thing he knew. Nobody’s allowed to do that. Now there’s no family anymore.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I mean Jordy’s — Jordy’s my life. Period.

MR. SCHWARTZ: How does this help it.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) my life. What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: How does this help it?

MR. CHANDLER: It doesn’t. It doesn’t.I don’t know how it’ll help it. It can’t hurt it anymore. It’s — I have — that’s why I have nothing to lose. I made this really clear to them. If they’re all there, we could all sit and talk. If they’re not there –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me ask – okay.

MR. CHANDLER: — taking it out of my hands, and there won’t be any talking anymore. They have a chance. They have a chance to talk it out.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: If they’re not in a calm, peaceful manner –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — even said you can be there. You could be there. I’m not going to do anything with you there. Michael can come with bodyguards and all with guns if he wants to. He can even come there with his [tape irregularity]. I don’t care. All I’m saying is everybody who’s a party to this (inaudible) sit down and talk about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I don’t disagree with that.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: No, we’re not. See, now –

MR. CHANDLER: — don’t want to be there, then they have made it to the point where I can’t talk to them about it –

MR. SCHWARTZ: No.

MR. CHANDLER: — so I have to force them to the table –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, no. I don’t disagree with everyone sits down and talks about it.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s what I’m calling — that’s what I called him about. Hello?

MR. SCHWARTZ: You mean, that was the message on the machine?

MR. CHANDLER: No. The man — yeah. That was the message on the machine. It said they’d better be there, because on the other times they tried — hello?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: The other times I tried to tell them that I needed to talk to them, all I

got was, “Go fuck yourself. We’re not talking to you.” So now I had to let them know and make sure that they know they’d [tape irregularity] they’re gonna get hurt by it, so (inaudible) — I had to make [tape irregularity] if they don’t sit down and talk to me they’re gonna get hurt. They can’t keep telling me to go fuck myself anymore. They have to talk. I want to talk to them. I don’t want to hurt anybody. They’re forcing me to do it. They’re forcing me to do it by refusing to sit down and talk to me. That’s all I ask for. “You sit down and you talk to me [tape irregularity] side of the story, I’ll listen to yours, we all sit down and see how it could be resolved.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. So that’s there –

MR. CHANDLER: That’s all I ask for.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but –

MR. CHANDLER: Michael can come with all his bodyguards and his lawyer if he wants to. I don’t really care, as long as everything gets aired out. That’s it. And if I walk away dissatisfied, then I’ll take it to the next step. That’s all. If they walk away dissatisfied, they have the right to do that, too. At least [tape irregularity] nothing will get resolved except for the fact that we’ll agree to meet again and talk about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I don’t know where it’ll go, but I’m saying is that when people — when you — when people cut off communication totally, you only have two choices: To forget about them, or you get frustrated by their action. I can’t forget about them. I love them. That’s it. I don’t like them. I still love Jordy, but I do not like them because I do not like the people that they’ve become, but I do love them, and because I love them I don’t want to see them [tape irregularity]. That’s why I was willing to talk. I have nothing to gain by talking. If I go through with this, I win big time. There’s no way that I lose. I’ve checked that out inside out.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But when you say “winning,” what are you talking about, “winning”?

MR. CHANDLER: I will get everything I want, and they will be totally — they will be destroyed forever. They will be destroyed. June is gonna lose Jordy. She will have no right to ever see him again.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s a fact, Dave.That’s what –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Does that help –

MR. CHANDLER: — Michael the career will be over.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Does that help Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: Michael’s career will be over.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And does that help Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: It’s irrelevant to me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but I mean the bottom line is –

MR. CHANDLER: The bottom line to me is, yes, June is harming him, and Michael is harming him. I can prove that, and I will prove that

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and if they force me to go to court about it, I will [tape irregularity], and I will be granted custody. She will have no rights whatsoever.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Now, I’m willing to sitdown and talk to her. If she wants to tell me to go fuck myself after that, she’s welcome to do it, and then she’ll either be right or wrong. [tape irregularity] I’ll win, maybe I’ll lose. I have the [tape irregularity]

MR. SCHWARTZ: [tape irregularity] for custody?

MR. CHANDLER: Forget the custody thing. It’s gonna go further than that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But what’s the bottom — I mean, what is the bottom line, though?

MR. CHANDLER: What do you mean?

MR. SCHWARTZ: The bottom line is, I mean, your responsibility and my responsibility –

MR. CHANDLER: The bottom line (simultaneous, inaudible) what I want?

MR. SCHWARTZ: No –

MR. CHANDLER: Is that what you’re saying?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I mean –

MR. CHANDLER: — what I want?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, what’s our responsibility in life, really?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you don’t have any right –

MR. SCHWARTZ: The kids is the number one –

MR. CHANDLER: — to discuss that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: What?

MR. CHANDLER: You don’t have any right to discuss that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: You’re a negligent father. You don’t have a right, by your own admission before. You told me that you were negligent.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You were negligent to Jordy, and you’ve been negligent to Kelly.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: In a court — in a court of law, June could prove you negligent in one flat fucking second.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. So?

MR. CHANDLER: You don’t have any right to all of a sudden decide that you’re going to be a good father or have a conversation about what’s right to do. I’ve never condemned you for it. I know what you’re going through [tape irregularity] that. I understand you have to stay away in order to be a normal human being. I understand that, but no one’s gonna give a shit about that in court. You and I live [tape irregularity] but I’m still living through it every day at my office, and it’s just bad for me too, believe me, and I understand you really well, and I know why [tape irregularity] she’ll make you look bad in one second.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I don’t disagree with that.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Well, this time it’s gonna be the other way around because she — you see, I love him so much that I’m willing to destroy my own life to protect him –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to do what I think is the best thing to do, not just — it’s not what I think. I’ve gotten professional [tape irregularity] everybody agrees that the only thing that was insane is that I didn’t step in a long –

MR. SCHWARTZ: This is –

MR. CHANDLER: This is –

MR. SCHWARTZ: — detrimental to him?

MR. CHANDLER: Extremely harmful to him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Everybody agrees with that. I mean, they — it’s their opinions that have convinced me to not stay away. You know, I’m not confrontational. I’ve got an [tape irregularity] inclination to do what you do, say, “Okay. Go fuck yourself. Go do what you want to do, and, you know, call me some day. I’ll see you then. I got a [tape irregularity],” but I’ve been so convinced by professional opinions that I have been negligent in not stepping in sooner that now it’s made me insane. Now I actually feel [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I do, and I –

MR. CHANDLER: — [tape irregularity] more important than the money, if the kid’s more important that you are, and they’re more important than I am –

MR. SCHWARTZ: And they are.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Then –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But let me ask –

MR. CHANDLER: — by action, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay, but –

MR. CHANDLER: Staying away from the family is not a good way of indicating that you care about your family. It’s a copout, and you –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I don’t know if it’s a copout. It might be the –

MR. CHANDLER: My feeling is, Dave, my feeling is that when you have really good communication with somebody, you don’t have to stay away from them.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, what happens when you –

MR. CHANDLER: — agree, but at least you could talk. You know, as long as you’re talking, nobody’s gonna get hurt. When the talking stops, that’s when people get hurt.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And that’s what happened with you?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, that’s what happened with me. They won’t return my phone calls. June called me once last week.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She told me to go fuck myself. Not in those words.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But you don’t have to say it in those words.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But you know June.

MR. CHANDLER: I –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, you know her thing is that she has to get the last word in.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, she isn’t this time, Dave, and you want to know something –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but you put her down for that?

MR. CHANDLER: Do I put her down?

MR. SCHWARTZ: For that?

MR. CHANDLER: I never did before, but when her getting her last word is now going to be harmful to Jordy, yes, I am going to step in, and, again, I’m not telling you this is my — my opinion was formed by –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — but this is my perception of [tape irregularity] professional opinions to make sure I wasn’t going off the deep end here.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And all I’m telling you is — I’ve always said this to June, and I’ve said this to Monique also, and I’ll say this to anybody I can. No matter what I do, you’re wrong automatically if you don’t sit down and talk about it, because my feeling is [tape irregularity] and you [tape irregularity] talk anything will be worked out. But as soon as you cut off communication you only frustrate the other person. And that makes — and that makes you wrong [tape irregularity] worse that way. You say to them, “I don’t care enough about you to sit down and talk.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: I don’t disagree with that.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s all I was asking. I’ve asked them for a month to sit down and talk to me, and I’m very disturbed and very concerned. I want them to hear my concerns.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Let them just tell me why I’m wrong. Let them just tell me that [tape irregularity] detrimental, etcetera. Let them just tell me that. And maybe I’ll disagree with them, and then we’ll take it from there.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But at least you can talk about it.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. I mean, they will not talk.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) forced me –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: What do I do? I mean, in the opinion of these experts, I would be a negligent father if I did not do what I am now doing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: In fact, in their opinion I have been negligent not to put a stop to [tape irregularity] opinion. I happen to agree with them now. I didn’t agree with them at first. Michael [tape irregularity] nice [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: So why do you think he’s not nice?

MR. CHANDLER: Why? Because he broke up the family, that’s why.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And he was put on notice from the first sentence out of my mouth was, “Michael, I think you’re really a great guy. You’re welcome into the family, as long as you are who you seem to be, but don’t take anything [tape irregularity].” I mean, that to me was the worst thing anybody could do to me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And you think he did it?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, Dave, if he wasn’t in the picture, everything would be as it was. I’m not –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But that’s sort of –

MR. CHANDLER: — saying that he did it premeditative, and I’m not saying he did it on his own.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m saying that he might have — it might have just evolved that way, and it might have evolved that [tape irregularity] desire, so I’m blaming all three of them, but when I come to that [tape irregularity], it really makes me hate June because the family was inviolate, [tape irregularity] felt about it. There was nothing I had. I mean, you came in this family and made it better. It was great. Someone else comes along and breaks it up. You know how [tape irregularity]. Okay. So do I [tape irregularity] coming into the family who’s going to do good things for the family.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But, I mean –

MR. CHANDLER: Michael divided and conquered, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: He what?

MR. CHANDLER: He divided and conquered.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: He did, Dave. He did.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh –

MR. CHANDLER: June and I agreed on the issue, whether it was her side or my side. If we both thought the same way [tape irregularity] any frustration. The fact is we both do not think the same way, and he — and I sincerely believe that he either consciously [tape irregularity] manipulated that. I think he consciously manipulated that because Michael Jackson [tape irregularity] the smartest streetwise people –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — that I’ve ever met, and if you sit down and have any long conversations with him, [tape irregularity] that guy is extremely bright.

MR. SCHWARTZ: So is that good or bad?

MR. CHANDLER: That he’s bright?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I think that if you use it for bad then you’re evil.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, do you think he’s sensitive?

MR. CHANDLER: Do I what?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, you know him a lot better than I know him. I don’t know him. I mean, I’ve talked to him a couple times, but –

MR. CHANDLER: I thought I knew him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think he’s sensitive?

MR. CHANDLER: I think he’s totally insensitive. I think he’s sensitive — I think he’s an extremely selfish person.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that he knows what was going on?

MR. CHANDLER: Of course he knows that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, this is the bottom line. The bottom line is I abandoned the family.

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: The bottom line is I abandoned the family. That’s the bottom line.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) line –

MR. SCHWARTZ: — so this is –

MR. CHANDLER: The bottom line is — the bottom line is he took Jordy out of the family with June’s help.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, yes and no, but, I mean, there’s a lot of things, and I — I mean, you’re bright, you’re sensitive –

MR. CHANDLER: Why don’t I put it this way, Dave. If you were there all the time, living in that house –

MR. SCHWARTZ: It wouldn’t have happened.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s right. It wouldn’t have even had a chance to happen.

MR. SCHWARTZ: It wouldn’t have happened, and I — it’s all my fault.

MR. CHANDLER: No, it isn’t all your fault.

MR. SCHWARTZ: It is definitely a hundred percent my fault.

MR. CHANDLER: I’ll tell you what. Whenever you have an argument with somebody, when I have an argument with Monique, when you have an argument with June, if I have an argument with you, it’s rarely one sided. There’s almost — you know, there’s always two sides to every –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. There’s ten sides to every –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) you can’t tell me, realistically, that June didn’t frustrate the hell out of you so many times that you finally left the house just to be sane, just to be alone and come back to your own sanity to get anyplace with her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, I agree with that completely, but the only thing is what — see, I haven’t only done it with June. I do it in every other relationship and in my work relationships.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then –

MR. SCHWARTZ: So it’s my hang-up.

MR. CHANDLER: — problem with that, then that problem has ultimately ended up bringing the family to this point. But you’re not solely to blame for it. It doesn’t mean that June was still — I didn’t do anything that — they didn’t have the right to take my kid away from me, to break up the family.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well – I’m in my garage. Can I call you back from the house?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: At the same number?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: If I don’t call you back in five minutes it means it’s off my pager. Call me at the house.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m in the garage right now.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: Bye.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Bye.

CONVERSATION between Dave Schwartz and Evan Chandler:

MR. SCHWARTZ: Hi.

MR. CHANDLER: Hi. I’m on a cordless phone, so let’s not use –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Don’t you have a regular phone?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, but it’s in the kitchen, and I don’t want to go upstairs.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m still wasted, Man.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Not as tired as me. Oh, you’re probably as tired as me.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, I mean, we just don’t — we don’t have to mention any names.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. If we could do this: If — I’m telling you, and you know I — just talking it out, I mean, I have a definite communication problem in my — I mean, what happens is when I get frustrated or I — I mean, I just withdraw. I’ve been doing it forever. I mean, I’ve done it forever with everything, and it works, you know, for — it works for me. I mean because I get through it and it just works and then I’m back and it’s no –

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, except do you want to know something? That can also be — you think that that’s the best way to do something, but if you look at it closely, I mean, I’ve always been that way too. Nothing’s really worked (inaudible) confrontation, and nothing’s as big a deal as it seems [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — except — and so you back off, and everything sort of takes care of itself –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, in time.

MR. CHANDLER: — except in this time my looking the other way and my failing to deal with the issues have harmed my son greatly. I believe that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, are you talking about harmed him in the relationship with you?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s for sure.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But –

MR. CHANDLER: — (inaudible) forever.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, I think he’s frustrated about me and maybe taking it out on you.

MR. CHANDLER: No.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because — no. He has said a few things in the past. You know, I’ve disappeared for, you know, long periods of time.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, you have.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right. And he has mentioned — you know, he’s a real sensitive kid –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But why do you take total blame for it? It’s never one person’s fault.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Now I’m telling you it’s my fault. I know it’s my fault, and –

MR. CHANDLER: You see –

MR. SCHWARTZ: — whatever –

MR. CHANDLER: — you think by doing that you might be — you might be doing a lot of harm.

How many times can an [tape irregularity] — when there’s two human beings involved, there’s two sides to the story. I mean, it’s automatic. Two people could witness the same story in two different ways. What I’m saying is that I was married to June. I’ve known June since –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. For a long time.

MR. CHANDLER: — ‘ or something like that, so what I’m saying is that I know her really well. I think I do. Maybe I don’t. I guess I don’t because I suddenly saw a part of her — a side of her which I really hate.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but they’re into survival.

MR. CHANDLER: What do you mean?

MR. SCHWARTZ: They’re into survival –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) are you talking about? What do you mean “survival”? Because why? What makes it — what do you mean?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, they don’t know what’s going on. I have made them — June’s real macho –

MR. CHANDLER: That’s exactly right.

MR. SCHWARTZ: — on the surface, and underneath she’s just insecure like all of us. Everyone is.

MR. CHANDLER: Dave –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Everyone’s insecure. JFK was insecure. Everyone is.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s the bottom line.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Let’s say they are.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Now, I haven’t really analyzed this until we’re just talking right now.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I put the blame on me a hundred percent.

MR. CHANDLER: You put the blame on you –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Completely a hundred percent.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m sorry. I –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Completely.

MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you this way, okay? You put all of — you put the three of them on the stand (simultaneous, inaudible) –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — any questions, and they will all be asked questions, and they will all have psychological examinations –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) given lie detector tests.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m going to tell you what. There is no excuse in law for June having done what she does. Despite the fact that you might say it’s your fault –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — whatever you say is going to [tape irregularity] capable of making her own decisions –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and she made those decisions to the harm of her son, despite the fact that, yeah, maybe she’s insecure, maybe she’s macho on the surface, and maybe you fucked her over. Maybe you did. Maybe you didn’t.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Nobody’s gonna give a shit about that. I know what you’re saying.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: And I agree with you, and I think that had you two had a really good [tape irregularity], maybe she wouldn’t have had to do what she did.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: And I know what you’re saying, and it breaks my heart, but I truly believe my son is being harmed greatly and that his life — he could be fucked up for the rest of his life [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: You gotta tell me why you think he’s being screwed up.

MR. CHANDLER: I have the evidence.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I know, but what — I don’t know what evidence. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you’ll see.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But why can’t you tell me? I swear –

MR. CHANDLER: You show up in court and you’ll see it on the big fucking screen –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But what –

MR. CHANDLER: — and then you’ll know what I’m talking about.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And you’ll hear in on tape recordings.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You’ll hear it all. You’ll see it all, just like I have.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It cost me thousands, tens of thousands of dollars –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to get the information I got, and I — you know I don’t have that kind of money –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I spent it, and I’m willing to spend more, and I’m willing –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to go down financially to –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s going to help Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: Dave, Jordy’s — I believe that Jordy’s already irreparably harmed.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s my true belief.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think that he’s fucking him?

MR. CHANDLER: I don’t know. I have no idea.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But harmed in — in just been spoiled?

MR. CHANDLER: No.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Just tell me –

MR. CHANDLER: You know, you gotta forgive me for one thing, but I have been told by my lawyer that if I say one thing to anybody –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: — don’t bother calling him again. He said this case is so open [tape irregularity] “You open your mouth and you blow it,” he said, “just don’t come back to me.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. I respect that. Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: Not that I don’t trust you or anything –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I know. I respect it.

MR. CHANDLER: You have a vested interest in it –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: And let me tell you this, by the way: What harm would it be to you, what harm would it be to your relationship to June, if Michael wasn’t around anymore? You say that you [tape irregularity] your fault. You say that you made her insecure.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait.

MR. CHANDLER: So if he wasn’t around anymore –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah?

MR. CHANDLER: — what do you think she’s going to do? She’s going to come back to you. She doesn’t need you anymore. She doesn’t even want you around anymore. She’s told me and she’s told you — I’m sure she’s told you that if [tape irregularity] Michael she’ll get rid of you. She’s told me that. She means it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: She means –

MR. SCHWARTZ: The only thing I told you before is I told her I didn’t want him buying her things in Europe. I gave her some money. And then when he did buy her things and she told me, I got pissed off at her. And that’s it, and that’s really the whole thing. That’s all we ever talked about.

MR. CHANDLER: How do you feel about her going off on tour with him? You told me when you were there the other day that everybody’s been calling you saying “Your wife’s been [tape irregularity]” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: It does [tape irregularity] –

MR. CHANDLER: And let me tell you something, by the way. That’s the best thing that could happen to him, is that people think he’s interested in June.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: The fact is, he has no interest in her whatsoever. The fact is he doesn’t even care about her. He doesn’t even like her. He’s [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t think he likes her?

MR. CHANDLER: I know he doesn’t. He told me he doesn’t. He can’t stand her. He told me that when –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Huh! He can’t stand her?

MR. CHANDLER: No. He told me that when he was in my house.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. At that point he liked us better than — Jordy too. Jordy’s the same as Michael. It was a simple divide and conquer. They felt us both out.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They saw who was going to let them do what they wanted to do, and then they made their choice.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And until I had a talk with Jordy one day at [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — they were gonna come live with me. They were gonna pack up, leave June’s house, and come here.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s what they were going to do, because they were getting more resistance from her than they were getting from me. You cannot tell this stuff — you cannot — I’m confiding in you, okay, Dave?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: Right? That’s –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Absolutely.

MR. CHANDLER: Nobody’s to know this conversation –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) except you and me; is that right?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: You promise me?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I promise you.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. What I’m telling you is that Jordy and Michael are users.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They had — they were gonna — they had their own relationship.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They want to carry it out the way they want to carry it out. They don’t want anybody getting in the way [tape irregularity] — least resistance, and that’s the way they’re going. They simply divided and conquered, and June went along with it. And she was wrong because she did it to the detriment of Jordy.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Jordy is not old enough to make these kind of [tape irregularity] that he’s making.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But is that a huge life decision?

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, you bet it is.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you — were you — let me ask you this: Did you ever pull away from your parents when you were a teenager?

MR. CHANDLER: I hated my parents.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think Jordy hates you?

MR. CHANDLER: If he doesn’t, he’s gonna hate me tomorrow.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But why do you –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) to –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you want that?

MR. CHANDLER: It doesn’t matter what I want.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But why would you want him to hate you, and why would you want to put him through that –

MR. CHANDLER: Because all I care about is what happens to him in the long run.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, the long run, is that going to be healthy in the long run?

MR. CHANDLER: According to the experts?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Absolutely.

According to the experts, if it goes on the way it is, he’s doomed. He has no chance of ever being a happy, healthy, normal human being, no

MR. SCHWARTZ: So what happens if you force him not to see him?

MR. CHANDLER: Not to see Michael?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Nobody’s saying for sure what will happen. Most people’s feeling is that he’s gonna go on and hate me for a long time and then some day when he gets older he’ll thank me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you think he hates you now?

MR. CHANDLER: I said I think he’ll — I said he may or may not hate me now –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — but he’ll definitely hate me tomorrow. He’ll hate me, why? Because I’m taking Michael away from him. That’s why.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And that’s a –

MR. SCHWARTZ: So you really think Michael’s bad for him?

MR. CHANDLER: I know Michael’s bad for him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You know how I know that? Why would somebody, Dave — if you tell me this, think of this logically. What reason would he want us split up — [tape irregularity] would he want me out of the way? What would be the reason, unless he has something to hide?

MR. SCHWARTZ: But –

MR. CHANDLER: I know what he has to hide. I happen to know what it is.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But I can’t tell you.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m just asking you in terms of logic. You know me. I’m not — I’m a pretty liberal guy.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I don’t get in anybody’s way, okay? So, I mean, what reason would he want me out of the way to such an extent that neither one of them will take my phone calls, neither one of them will talk to me?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I think Jordy’s taken my route of just withdrawing.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, one of the lessons he’s gonna learn is that that route doesn’t work. See, you just learned that lesson yourself. By you withdrawing, as you said in your own words, you’re the cause of this whole problem.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I think I am.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. So that’s what withdrawal does for you. My approach to the whole thing is that the one person — the person who doesn’t talk is the one who’s wrong, period –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — no matter what the action was, I believe everything is preventable, every bad action that anybody takes is — unless you’re truly pathologic –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — is probably preventable if you just found somebody who would sit [tape irregularity] you know what? They don’t even have to talk back and give you [tape irregularity] if you get it out, everything will be okay, you know, but that’s my approach. My approach is that the people who don’t talk are the ones who are wrong.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And I agree with that, totally.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then you’re wrong.

MR. SCHWARTZ: No. I –

MR. CHANDLER: You (inaudible) –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I just said I am wrong, but here is the other — I mean, the thing is Jordy’s years old. I’m talking about adults. I mean, I don’t know if he — I mean, you’re his dad. You’re his role model.

MR. CHANDLER: No, I’m not his role model.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes, you are, definitely –

MR. CHANDLER: Not anymore.

MR. SCHWARTZ: You are, positively, in the long run, you’re his role model.

MR. CHANDLER: There is no — there isn’t gonna be a long run if things went on like this. Don’t you see? As long as I go along with whatever they want to do –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — everything’s okay. As soon as I say you can’t [tape irregularity] anybody –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Did you go through that?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, I went through that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And how old were you?

MR. CHANDLER: Why do you — oh, with my parents?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: No, I didn’t go through that with my parents. I never had any outside influence on me –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — was more powerful than my parents were.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, Michael is very seductive, without even trying.

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, he’s trying, believe me. He just looks like he’s not trying because he’s so damn good at it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, it’s –

MR. CHANDLER: Dave, he fooled me –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — I’ll tell you that. He fooled me, for a while.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think this is –

MR. CHANDLER: There’s no reason why they would have to cut me out unless they — unless they need me to be away so they can do certain things which I don’t think are good to be doing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And I — and not only that, but I don’t even have anything to say about it, okay? [tape irregularity] I think what they’re doing and it isn’t bad, and so maybe I’m wrong –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — but I’m not even getting a chance to express that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I think that’s all — I think it’s all fair because –

MR. CHANDLER: I had a good communication with Michael.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: We were friends, you know. I liked him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I respected him and everything else for what he is, you know. There was no reason why he had to stop calling me. He could have called me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: In fact, Dave, I — you ask Jordy. I sat in the room one day, and I talked to Michael and told him exactly what I want out of this whole relationship, what I want [tape irregularity], okay, so he wouldn’t have to figure me out.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And one of things I said is we always have to be able to talk to each other.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s the rule, okay, because I know that as soon as you stop talking weird things start going on and people [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Imaginations take over.

MR. CHANDLER: Imagination will just kill you.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: It causes all kinds of problems, and so, I mean –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, can you do this –

MR. CHANDLER: Do you think you — look. Do you know what it’s like? You go out with — listen. I — just that old expression, you know. It came from some movie. How does it go? “Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean somebody isn’t [tape irregularity].” You know that expression?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. What it really means is that you may think I’m crazy –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) I’m thinking is actually right, but what I’m saying to you is that I’ve had every single girl — and I am not kidding you — every [tape irregularity] ever gone out with, from the very first girl to the very last, has heated on me, and I have never cheated on anybody.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I would never. Now, if I wanted to, based on that history, I could be so fucking paranoid about girls, I would never –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — be able to [tape irregularity] relationship. I wouldn’t be able to [tape irregularity] was like, I couldn’t have a family. I’d be a fucking raving lunatic. Okay?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But what’s my point? My point is that the only thing that keeps me from getting that way is that I can talk about it and be reassured [tape irregularity] on it in my imagination — I mean, my wife’s not home tonight.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She’s gonna be at a meeting until : o’clock in the morning.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: Right? This has happened many times.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She’s going to go away to Cannes Film Festival next year –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — right? Do you know what that’s like?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That Film Festival’s a fucking sex party.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Next year, without me, okay? Now, if I didn’t have a chance to talk to her about my fears, my [tape irregularity], probably shoot her, or I’d divorce her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And I’m not saying her as an individual. Wouldn’t matter who — I could be married to Mother Teresa and I’d have the same feeling. It’s just because of what [tape irregularity] that I’ve been — my finger’s been stuck in the electric socket so much that I don’t want to get stuck in there again, so I keep — and girls do that to me, you know? They keep fucking me up, so –

MR. SCHWARTZ: So what was –

MR. CHANDLER: — bothers me. I might be totally irrational –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — but you want to know why I’m not crazy about it at all and I have a great relationship and I trust her and everything is fine?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Because she’ll sit down and she’ll talk to me about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And she’s wildly in love with you.

MR. CHANDLER: She tells me she is.

MR. SCHWARTZ: She is.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, it’s very obvious.

MR. CHANDLER: And you want to know what I told her? I told her this. I said June — “Monique,” I said, “if you ever want to sleep with somebody else or if you don’t love me anymore, if you come to me and you tell me that [tape irregularity] out of the house and fuck his brains out, I’ll love you forever, I’ll support you and wish you well. But if it’s the other way around, you fuck him first and then you [tape irregularity], I’ll kill you, period.” I said, “Those are the rules. If you want to stay with me, you gotta understand that’s the only way I can survive. That’s how I live.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s all comes — that’s what really relationships –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, trust is real important.

MR. CHANDLER: When you get down to relationships like we — like really intimate ones, okay?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Like you and I. I trust you with my life.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: And I know you trust me too.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay? And with Monique, I said, “That’s all I’m after.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: What does she say?

MR. CHANDLER: She said, “I understand. That’s fine.” She said, “It’ll never happen. I don’t know why you’re bringing it up, but if you’re bringing it up, I won’t do it. Trust me. It won’t happen.” I said, “Okay. I’m just — I’m telling you now ahead of time” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s good communication.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. I mean, I’m not being embarrassed by it –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: — I’m not keeping it inside. I want to have a good marriage and a good relationship

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I know this is one issue that bothers me, no matter who that girl would be.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay? I’m not –

MR. SCHWARTZ: In any –

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) personal against her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s just with me. It’s my problem, and so I’m letting her know that I have a problem. I’m not hiding anything. I’d not trying to be macho cool dude about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: And so if I wasn’t able to talk to her, this marriage would have been over a long time ago.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Because [tape irregularity] –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Don’t we learn like that?

MR. CHANDLER: Because of my imagination, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but don’t we learn through experiences –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) want to know what I really think? I really think most people don’t learn. I think at some point in our lives we develop behavior patterns, and even if we know that they’re wrong we just can’t break them.

MR. SCHWARTZ: You know –

MR. CHANDLER: Most people can’t change their behaviors.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) they are at a certain –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes and no, but I think you get –

MR. CHANDLER: Look at you. Are you going to change now because of what happened here?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, interesting –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) be different? Is your marriage going to be better? Are you going to — you know, you guys have no right to be married. I told June that myself many times. She would call me all the time and say, “Did Dave call Kelly? Did Dave call Jordy?” No. What kind of fucking marriage do you guys have? Why don’t you guys just split up so he could see his kids, at least –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You know, if he doesn’t want to come over to the house because of you, then get divorced so he could see his kids. There’s nothing wrong with that. You know, you might be better friends. She and I were better friends when we [tape irregularity], and what I’m saying to her is that if there’s no — if there’s no communication, there’s no sense in being together with anybody, whether it’s a marriage or a friendship or a business relationship. If you cannot sit down and talk [tape irregularity] ultimately gonna destruct, and that’s what happened here. They shut me out from the most important thing in my life. In fact, I don’t have a life. I don’t want to have a life [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: I understand it, too, but I gotta tell you, in just talking to you this

time, see, Jordy’s copying me.

MR. CHANDLER: Well –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, he’s positively copying me. I mean, he’s been with both of us since — I mean, I’ve had him since he’s — almost as long as you have.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s right.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And he’s –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) had him as long as he’s been cognizant of the fact of who’s around him –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, so –

MR. CHANDLER: — learned a lot from you.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, and one of the things he learned, probably, was just to withdraw, because I do it, but, you know, I’m not chastising myself for it. I’m just looking at it objectively. I mean, realistically. I mean, I would say –

MR. CHANDLER: You haven’t (inaudible) and in some way it’s resonated throughout the family –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and partly been the cause of all this happening.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, but I mean he’s, you know, he’s learned a lot of good things from me.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, I’m sure he –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But, you know, I mean, everyone’s not perfect.

MR. CHANDLER: No. Everyone’s not.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But I think –

MR. CHANDLER: (Inaudible) expect everyone to be, but you gotta expect people that claim to love you to communicate with you because if there’s communication there’s nothing. What’s the sense of having your relationship? People don’t even care enough about you to — you tell them — I actually told June how much I was hurting. I said –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — “I’m hurting, June. I’m crying every day. I’m dying.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but they’re going through every –

MR. CHANDLER: Do you know what she said to me?

MR. SCHWARTZ: What?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s just too bad. Fuck that.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but you can’t — I mean, you know June.

MR. CHANDLER: I can’t make excuses for June.

MR. SCHWARTZ: There’s no way to make — there’s nothing to make an excuse. I mean, we all have our good points and our bad points, and we all have things that –

MR. CHANDLER: I think, you know, her bad points [tape irregularity] gone too far. I really do.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I think you gotta look at the overall picture. I mean, now we’re talking –

MR. CHANDLER: I am looking at — I’m looking at Jordy’s picture. That’s the only picture I’m looking at. I — June’s not part of it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But do you think that –

MR. CHANDLER: I know that after tomorrow — in fact, not even after tomorrow. It’s already happened. I don’t ever want anything to do with June anymore because June is not part of my family. In my mind, she’s died. I don’t ever want to talk to her again. [tape irregularity] sitting on the stand being totally humiliated or at the end of a shotgun. That’s the only way I want to see June now. She’s gotta [tape irregularity] do this to kid. Again, it’s not right. Can do it to me. Can’t do it to my kid. It’s not right.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think that whatever’s happening, if you think it’s bad for him, she’s done, you know, out of malice?

MR. CHANDLER: You want to know something? You don’t even have to ask me. You could — as you said before, you want to sit down and talk to the people I spoke to –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — you’re going to have a chance to do that if you want to. You go and ask the experts –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and you won’t have to ask. They will be there anyway. There’s not one person in this world [tape irregularity] can’t find a person –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — disagree with me. I’m the one that disagreed with — I didn’t even want to know about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I kept saying, “No, this is okay. There’s nothing wrong. This is great.” It took experts to convince me [tape irregularity] that by not taking action –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — my son was going to be irreparably damaged for the rest of his life [tape irregularity]. That was what I heard.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because his friend is older, or because of all the seduction?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you know, age in and of itself is not a harmful thing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But it could have been used to advantage, and in some ways Michael is using his age and experience and his money and his power to great advantage to Jordy. The problem is he’s also harming him, greatly harming him, for his own selfish reasons. He’s not the altruistic, kind human being that he appears to be.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) selfish motives here.

MR. SCHWARTZ: You mean, harming Jordy because it’s taken him out of reality?

MR. CHANDLER: It’s not so much really what he’s taken him out of. It’s what he’s brought him into.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I don’t mean to be devious. I just can’t be –

MR. SCHWARTZ: You can’t tell me.

MR. CHANDLER: — specific about it, but I tell you that, again, it all comes down to one thing. They don’t want to talk to me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Jordy — yeah, he’s 13 years old. He’s only [tape irregularity], hoping that the problem will go away by itself, but June’s old enough to know better. June’s the one that’s frustrated me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, this is the deal: I talked to Jordy about it today, about, you know, his not contacting you and not calling you on Father’s Day and not sending you anything. He’s confused June — and this is the truth and from him. June did everything to get him to send you a card, to call and everything. He’s just frustrated, you know, and I don’t know about what or — you know, it’s just like he’s scared or doesn’t know what to do or –

MR. CHANDLER: (Inaudible).

MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

MR. CHANDLER: June didn’t do a thing to have him call me or send me a card by her own admission to me last time. She didn’t give a shit, is what she told me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but I don’t believe that because, I mean –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) told me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because, I mean –

MR. CHANDLER: I –

MR. SCHWARTZ: With June and — I talked to them today.

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MR. CHANDLER: Well, then, she’s lying to you, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but would Jordy lie?

MR. CHANDLER: Now they’re scared shit.

MR. SCHWARTZ: No. Would Jordy — no, because they don’t know anything about it. I didn’t even tell them that I had talked to you this morning, okay?

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) them know you heard the message.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And what are you going there all of a sudden? You haven’t been there –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Last night’s the first night I’ve been there.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. By accident?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, it’s Kelly’s birthday. I mean, you know, I got — it’s tough for me too. It’s not easy. I mean, you don’t really know what’s going on with me, but, I mean, it’s very, very, very difficult times for me.

MR. CHANDLER: So what?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Very.

MR. CHANDLER: So what you’re saying is that because of your problem you sacrifice the kids.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I did it –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) money all during –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I just — I fucked up, but –

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, you fucked up.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) I’m not fucking up –

MR. SCHWARTZ: — when you’re trying to survive –

MR. CHANDLER: Hey, Dave, it doesn’t matter. You want to know something? When my father was dying of cancer –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and he had — and he got in a car crash that crushed his leg and his spinal cord –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — at the same time and he was in incredible pain –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — I used to talk to him about it –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and he would say, “You know what?” I’d say, “Why don’t you — you never talk — you never talk about it, you never complain to anybody.” He said, “You know what? Because everybody’s got their own problems, and nobody’s gonna think that my problem’s any worse than their problem.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And so as bad as your problem is [tape irregularity] it may not be on the same scale, but emotionally, financially, psychologically, it’s devastating me as much as [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: And I accept that.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But I — let me –

MR. CHANDLER: I’m telling you this: That as bad as my life is, I’m willing to let it get a lot worse –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and sacrifice whatever it is — and I don’t even consider it a sacrifice — give up whatever it is so that my son won’t be damaged. You’re not willing to do that. You fall apart just to save one of your kids [tape irregularity] away from my practice, from my family, from my wife, from Cody, from everybody else, do whatever I have to do –

MR. SCHWARTZ: And you think that’ll save Jordy? I mean, don’t you think there’s a happy medium?

MR. CHANDLER: No. We’re not gonna save him. June’s not gonna save him. Who’s gonna save him? Gotta be me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you really think he has –

MR. CHANDLER: — one.

MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t think it’s just gonna run its course?

MR. CHANDLER: Dave . . .

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, you know more than I know, so I’m at a disadvantage.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then, I will tell you without question. It’s gone way too far.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Jordy is never going to be the same person he was.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s never — by the time it runs its course –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — if it does, he will be so damaged he’ll never recover –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and that’s not my opinion. I mean, I happen to be believe it now because my eyes have been opened –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — but I’m not the one that first [tape irregularity], so what I’m saying to you is that I’m acting because [tape irregularity] I’m going to cause him great harm, and you tell me if maybe it’s gonna cause him harm right now. I think he’ll be harmed much greater if I do nothing, and besides now I’m convinced that if I do nothing I’m going to be, from doing nothing, causing him harm, and I couldn’t –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Did you discuss that with Monique?

MR. CHANDLER: Not really.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I don’t want her involved. I mean, she would just like the whole thing to go away.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But we’ve had a nice little relationship and a great new marriage and a nice little family –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and everything’s terrific over here.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And, you know, I’ve tried to explain to Cody why his brother doesn’t call him and he doesn’t come over here. You know [tape irregularity] whole world, and I’m not exaggerating.

MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible) Jordy.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. You ask Monique when you speak to her if he doesn’t bring it up every conversation –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) out during the day. Cody spent about two weeks crying his eyes out. He’d have nightmares about Jordy. He’d get up in the middle of the night and come crying into our bed. I’d listen to him talk, and I would break down –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I couldn’t even — I mean, I couldn’t even — I couldn’t — I didn’t know what to say to him, you know? What can you say?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It was the saddest thing I [tape irregularity]. I mean, how do you do that? years old. There’s no — you know, and a [tape irregularity] just come into it? I ask you this: If Michael Jackson were just some -year-old person, would this be happening? No. He’s got power, he’s got money, he’s got seduction. [tape irregularity] happening [tape irregularity] they’ve been seduced away from the family by power and by money.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And by this guy’s image.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: He could be the same person without the power and the money, and they wouldn’t even be talking to him. You

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know it and I know it. So for power and money and his image, June and Jordy have broken up the family, and even though [tape irregularity] a lot better, because I’ve sat down and talked to him, and I’ve told him long before it came down to going this far –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — that Cody was really hysterical about him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And what does he say?

MR. CHANDLER: He said that he would, you know, he would call him and he’d talk to him and stuff, and he tried, you know.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: As time went on, the times between when he did call or see Cody got longer and longer and longer and longer until [tape irregularity] anymore. And you know what? He would do the same thing to Kelly. Kelly just happens to have to come along because June has to happen to come along –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — but if [tape irregularity] now, June wouldn’t be in the picture and neither would Kelly, any more than I am.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They would have dumped her a long time ago. They even told me [tape irregularity]. They can’t stand her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Jordy can’t stand June?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. Neither one of them like her. They don’t like anybody but each other.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They don’t like you, and they don’t like me and they don’t like her. They don’t want anybody coming between them. [tape irregularity] got to be liminated. You go ahead and you see — you tell June. You tell June to start saying “No” to everything they want –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and see what happens. The only reason she’s there is because she says “Yes” [tape irregularity] favorite as long as I was saying “Yes.” Trust me. I don’t know what’s happened to Jordy except he doesn’t care, literally does not care, if he would ever see him again. He hopes I would go away and not bother him. That’s [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I know that’s not true.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) Michael.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I know that’s not true.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m telling you. But that doesn’t matter, you know. I’m not taking it personally. I’m just trying to do what I have been led to believe is the right action to take so that he’s not harmed. I mean, Unfortunately, June and [tape irregularity] because in order to protect Jordy certain things are gonna have to come out, and those two are not going to have any defense against it whatsoever. They’re just going to be [tape irregularity] violently destroyed.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that it helps Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, it’ll help Jordy because he won’t — he’ll never see Michael again. That’s –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think that –

MR. CHANDLER: And he’s probably never gonna see June again if I have to go through with this.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think –

MR. CHANDLER: Unless I’d let him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that would affect him?

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: That he was — that this was done by force?

MR. CHANDLER: You mean that Michael did this to him?

MR. SCHWARTZ: No, that you, like, are forcing him not to see someone or take him away from his mom?

MR. CHANDLER: Well, I am gonna force him not to see –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but do you think that’s the right way to do it?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. I’ve been led to believe that it’s the right thing to do. In fact, it’s the right thing to do because how do you know? You don’t know what –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I don’t have a clue.

MR. CHANDLER: Suppose you were to find out what they’re doing and you were to agree with me that these things that they’re doing are harmful to Jordy or –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I’d like to know.

MR. CHANDLER: — be harmful.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, in my wildest imagination I can’t figure out what it is.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. But suppose –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Unless it’s sex, and I don’t know, you know.

MR. CHANDLER: Suppose that you were to find out that there were things going on that you believed were harmful to him? Would you say to me, “Hey, look. You know, I got things to do here [tape irregularity], but, you know, time will go by and everything will be okay”? I mean, that’s –

MR. SCHWARTZ: No. What I would do — I’m not disagreeing with you.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Well, they won’t talk to me about those things. They won’t talk to me about anything.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Even about what you think they’re doing or about what you know they’re doing?

MR. CHANDLER: What I know they’re doing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I’ve tried to talk to Jordy. Jordy — Jordy does not talk to me. This stopped long before I told him he couldn’t [tape irregularity]. He just does not talk to me anymore. In fact, when he talks to Michael on the telephone, he goes in another room because I’m not allowed to hear what they’re talking about except I taped [tape irregularity] they’re talking about. Ha ha ha. Anyway, all I’m saying is that [tape irregularity] that I would be negligent to continue to do nothing [tape irregularity] gonna be because nobody really knows how Jordy will be affected one way or the other. I know for a fact that he’s going to be affected adversely if I do nothing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So I have nothing to lose.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Would you do me a big favor?

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Could you and I go to one of these shrinks and talk it over?

MR. CHANDLER: No.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why not?

MR. CHANDLER: Because it’s too late, after : tomorrow.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But why not? Why couldn’t we go talk it over –

MR. CHANDLER: Because the thing’s already — the thing has already been set in motion.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s happening at :. : tomorrow –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — it’s out of my hands. I do nothing else again –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — after : tomorrow.

It’s all been automatically set in motion.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not even in contact anymore –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — with this person. This thing is –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Let me ask you this, then.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) :, unless I call in –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and tell him not to do it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: So why don’t you call and say not to do it?

MR. CHANDLER: Because I’m not going to.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why? Why wouldn’t you go with me? I mean, we trust each other. We respect each other. Why couldn’t you go with me and we’d decide together?

MR. CHANDLER: Because I don’t want to talk to you about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: I want to talk to June and Jordy and Michael –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but why can’t you talk to me? I mean, I’m — I could be very –

MR. CHANDLER: — be there tomorrow and –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

MR. CHANDLER: You can be there at the meeting tomorrow, and you can get a chance to talk to him –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — if you want to, but if they don’t say, “Well, there’s not going to be a meeting” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

MR. CHANDLER: — I want to talk to them. I don’t want to talk to you.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Because you have had your head buried in Rent A Wreck, and you have no idea what’s going on –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and just because you all of a sudden decide to have some interest in [tape irregularity] I don’t [tape irregularity] going on. It will take you weeks to catch up –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — you’ll never know what’s going on by explanation.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You’d have to have lived it. You’d have to have witnessed it. Myself would never have believed it –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — if I didn’t live through it, see it and hear it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I would not have believed it. And that’s all. I cannot take this [tape irregularity] over to you because that’s the only way you’re gonna know it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: The evidence is already locked up in a safe place –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and it’s gonna come out only [tape irregularity] let it come out, and that’s it. If they don’t talk to me tomorrow, out it comes.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Well, but let me ask you this- -

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) Michael Jackson — Michael Jackson’s career, Dave. This man is gonna be humiliated beyond belief. You’ll not believe it. He will not believe what’s going to happen to him.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Beyond his worst nightmares. [tape irregularity] not sell one more record.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s for sure. And I mean I’m [tape irregularity] it just has to happen in order to get — to keep [tape irregularity] and it doesn’t have to happen if they show up tomorrow.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But if they don’t show up — and I’ve made it very clear — I’ve tried to make it really clear on that answering machine, “This is the last chance to talk. If you talk, we have a chance. If we don’t talk, it’s all over.” It’s out of my hands. I mean, what else can I do?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I don’t — you know, I don’t –

MR. CHANDLER: What’s the disadvantage to you if Michael Jackson’s destroyed and out of the family? What good is he doing you?

MR. SCHWARTZ: What harms it — well, it has nothing to — I’m only thinking of Jordy.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) come over to talk to you, you seemed pretty damned upset that everybody was telling you that Michael Jackson has taken your family away from you. You even went so far as to tell me you couldn’t get bank loans because of that [tape irregularity] turn around completely degrees.

MR. SCHWARTZ: It’s not turning around .

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) for Michael Jackson.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I’ll tell you what I’m concerned about.

MR. CHANDLER: What?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I’m concerned about Jordy.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, if you were concerned about Jordy, you should have been around a long time ago, because I have been.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Where have you been?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I’ve been there plenty for him. I mean, in the years I’ve been there a lot.

MR. CHANDLER: I agree –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I would say –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) day –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I would say this: So I made a few mistakes, but –

MR. CHANDLER: Why –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I can’t condemn myself for it.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, why all of a sudden do you not want to be there?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Did I not want to be there?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because I’ve been in a survival mode.

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: And, you know –

MR. CHANDLER: The fact of the matter is –

MR. SCHWARTZ: You know, you do what you have to do, and sometimes you make the wrong move, and sometimes your emotions make you do it, and sometimes it’s just — it’s the way that you face it. Sometimes you –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) survival mode, and so you’re doing what you’re doing, and I’m not in a survival mode. I’m trying for him to survive –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, what I –

MR. CHANDLER: — doing what I think –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I’ll tell you what. I would die for that kid. I mean, I have — you don’t know what I’ve done for that kid.

MR. CHANDLER: Easy to say that, Dave, but when you tell me you’re in a survival mode so you can’t pay attention to your children, it doesn’t jive with “I would die for that kid.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. I’m ashamed of that. I’m not proud of that, but when you –

MR. CHANDLER: I mean, how do you — I mean, which of those two statements should I choose to believe, because they’re both entirely opposite each other?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well –

MR. CHANDLER: “I would die for that kid” or “I’m” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: If I had –

MR. CHANDLER: — “in a survival mode and I” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I would do anything for Jordy. I would lose everything. I would die for Jordy. That’s the bottom line.

MR. CHANDLER: Then why don’t you just back me up right now and let’s get rid of Michael Jackson.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Because I don’t know the facts.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Well, when you know –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, I don’t –

MR. CHANDLER: Okay. When you know the facts, when you see the facts come out, then you’ll make a decision at that point.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right. That’s fair.

MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, that’s more than fair, but this — let me –

MR. CHANDLER: It’s unfortunately gonna be too late, then, and nothing’s gonna matter at that point.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: Because the fact is so fucking overwhelming –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah?

MR. CHANDLER: — that everybody’s going to be destroyed in the process. The facts themselves are gonna — once this thing starts rolling –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — the facts themselves are gonna overwhelm. It’s gonna be bigger than all of us put together, and the whole thing’s just gonna crash down on everybody and destroy everybody in its sight. That’s [tape irregularity] humiliating, believe me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And is that good?

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. It’s great.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

MR. CHANDLER: Great, because –

MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, is that how you’re –

MR. CHANDLER: Because June and Jordy and Michael –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — have forced me to take it to the extreme –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to get their attention. How pitiful, pitifuckingful they are to have done that. I’ve tried to get their attention –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — I’ve cried on the phone, I’ve talked on the phone –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — I have begged on the phone, and all I get back is, “Go fuck yourself” on the phone, and so now I’m still trying to get their attention until : tomorrow for their [tape irregularity], and I will know that even having gone this far they won’t talk to me, then I know that I’m absolutely right in doing what I’m doing because they have left me no other [tape irregularity]. I am not allowed to talk to [tape irregularity], and so since they’re sending me that message and telling me that –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — they leave me no choice. They will not let me say to them, “This is what’s bothering me, and this is what I’d like to do about it. What do you think?” They’re saying, “We don’t care what you have to think — say about [tape irregularity].”

MR. SCHWARTZ: You mean by no communication?

MR. CHANDLER: Am I supposed to just bury my head? No. Not when my kid’s involved.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I can’t. So it’s their fault. Everything’s their fault, one hundred percent, and the reason it’s their fault [tape irregularity] try to communicate, and they have time after time frustrated my attempts to talk by telling me, “Go fuck yourself.” And when you do that to somebody, consistently, you drive them to do something [tape irregularity]. I’m not an evil person. I don’t want to do this.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It’s their fault because they won’t talk. They have one more chance. I’ve told them this. That’s why I left that message. The message was very harsh [tape irregularity] and it was very true, and it was to let them know that I am not kidding around.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m begging them. That message was begging, one more time –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — to sit down and talk and saying basically, “I don’t want to hurt you, but you’re not leaving me any choice.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And, you know, if they choose to ignore it, for whatever their motives — June doesn’t ignore things for the same — she doesn’t bury her head in the sand and make believe it’s gonna go away.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: June usually will call you up and say, “Go fuck yourself and drop dead” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and she’ll get violent and all that, maybe even punch you in the face.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, that’s not so bad.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s right, and yet she’s not calling me –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — she’s not doing anything. She’s not talking either. So Michael’s not talking either. The three of them, completely different personalities –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — handle situations in three completely different ways, and yet none of the three of them is calling me.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: You can tell me that Jordy’s burying his head in the sand and that’s his reaction [tape irregularity]. What’s the other two excuses? I don’t know. They won’t even tell me what their excuse for not talking to me is. I don’t even — I can’t make an excuse for –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Michael, I can’t tell you. June, she doesn’t know what’s going on.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, of course she doesn’t know what’s going on. She wouldn’t let me tell her.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But she doesn’t going on — know what’s going on –

MR. CHANDLER: I did tell her once.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I did tell her once what my thoughts were about it.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And she said, “Go fuck yourself,” basically.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Does this –

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) she said — I do remember ’cause I wrote it on a piece of paper.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: It shocked me so much coming from her mouth that I actually wrote it down, verbatim, in quotes.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That this human being would say something like that about her own kid, and so now that I know that she feels that way about [tape irregularity] no reason why I should assume that she gives a shit about me, so –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know she cares about you.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, you know, that doesn’t matter anymore. June is nonexistent. If — I have no — I have nothing for her anymore. I will never talk to her again, ever. Never. She’s a horrible human being, and it’s all gonna come out, and I don’t even have to say that [tape irregularity]. I’ll let everybody make their own decision.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: June is a horrible, selfish human being. [tape irregularity], and now I find this out about how [tape irregularity] — it’s all over. And if they’re stupid enough not to talk to me tomorrow, well, they’re going to have –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I think they want to talk to you, and I want to talk to you.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then they should –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But when it comes with a threat, I mean, that’s what’s upsetting to me.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s too bad.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, why?

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) supposed to do to get someone’s attention? I say, “I am begging you to talk to me.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That doesn’t work. So then you cry hysterically on the phone, “I’m in so much pain because I’m losing” –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Who did you say that — who was that to?

MR. CHANDLER: To June.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, and how long ago was that?

MR. CHANDLER: Oh, three weeks, maybe.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And then you call up and you say, “I demand to talk to him.”

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: None of that works.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) get the same response. I mean, no emotion from the other side whatsoever.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Uh-huh.

MR. CHANDLER: Nothing.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Except the coldest response you can possibly imagine, okay?

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And maybe it’s because she’s insecure. I don’t care anymore –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I cared at the time. I mean, I was totally shocked that she would respond that way to me. I couldn’t believe it. Okay? So I know that I have tried in every way. I’ve appealed to her in every way I know how. I’ve appealed to her intelligence, I’ve appealed to her emotions, and so I’ve done every — I’ve gotten on the ground and I’ve groveled in front of her. I’ve gone so far as to tell her that her son is in danger.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: None of it made a difference, none of it, and so what else am I supposed to do to get their attention?

MR. SCHWARTZ: I –

MR. CHANDLER: If I didn’t care, Dave, I wouldn’t have left that message.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

MR. CHANDLER: I just would have gone and done whatever I wanted to do –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and they’d have gotten the shock of their life –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — that all of a sudden would have appeared out of nowhere, and then their whole lives would be forever different and forever bad.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I have nothing to gain by talking to them tomorrow. All that can happen tomorrow is that I’m gonna look at their faces and I’m gonna feel bad –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and I’m gonna mitigate my position. I’m gonna give in somewhat [tape irregularity] I just went ahead and did what I was gonna do, I don’t ever have to see them again –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — they’re automatically gonna be destroyed and I’m gonna get what I want. That’s a given [tape irregularity], so –

MR. SCHWARTZ: But, I mean, is that the way to get Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: — talk to them — I’m talking to them for their sake –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — mine. This is my fourth, fifth and last attempt to communicate.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So when I leave a threatening message, I am threatening them –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — because nothing else works. Crying didn’t work. Begging didn’t work. Intelligence didn’t work.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Appealing to the motherly [tape irregularity] nothing worked. So what else is left? You threaten. If that doesn’t work, you’ve basically tried everything there is that you could possibly try.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I didn’t threaten him physically. I didn’t say I was going to kill them. Michael can show up with all his bodyguards with guns and surround me if he wants to.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I’m not killing anybody tomorrow. It’s not the next step. His death is not the next (inaudible), so I mean I will talk to them tomorrow, but that’s for their — they can’t possibly feel threatened.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s bullshit. I didn’t threaten them physically in any way, and certainly Michael’s got enough [tape irregularity] lawyers (inaudible). He has Burt Fields, who’s a big hotshot, if he wants to, sit right there. I don’t give a shit.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Whatever, you know, is going to make them protected from my great threat. I’m showing up all by my little self, and they can show up with an entire army if they need to protect themselves from me, but there’s nothing that they can do to convince me that they’re not showing up because they’re afraid for their lives.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They could show up [tape irregularity] surrounded by bodyguards. He could certainly have them come over to June’s house, so [tape irregularity] threat was obviously the last (inaudible). I’ve never punched anybody. I’ve never shot anybody. I’ve never done anything violent in my life. There’s no reason why they should feel physically threatened. Never ever given them any indication that I [tape irregularity] Jordy, so, you know, they know that that threat’s [tape irregularity] to be fearful of that. They know that that [tape irregularity] and they know that I left it because there’s no other way to get ahold of them.

MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s fair.

MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I think it’s fair.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Let me ask you this question. I mean, I definitely want to be there.

MR. CHANDLER: That’s fine.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Can we do it at night?

MR. CHANDLER: No. Has to be –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Why not? Why does it have to be in the morning?

MR. CHANDLER: Because it’s too late at night.

MR. SCHWARTZ: It doesn’t have to be late –

MR. CHANDLER: I have to have the regular business hours. I need as many business hours –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — if it doesn’t go my way to get the wheels going.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But what time are you ready to — what time are you through work tomorrow –

MR. CHANDLER: The wheels roll at : if they’re not there.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but can you do that for me, make it later?

MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) do it. I can’t. You don’t have to be there.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But I want to –

MR. CHANDLER: — tape record it. You can hear it all.

MR. SCHWARTZ: But I want to be there.

MR. CHANDLER: Well, then you have to be there at :. It’s already set.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: There are other people involved that are waiting for my phone call that are intentionally going to be in certain positions –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — [tape irregularity].

I paid them to do it. They’re doing their job. I gotta just go ahead and follow through on the time zone.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Um-hmm.

MR. CHANDLER: I mean the time set out. Everything is going according to a certain plan that isn’t just mine. There’s other people involved –

MR. SCHWARTZ: How about : ?

MR. CHANDLER: Nope. : is not even going to work. I mean, they’re going to have — they’re going to have to be there or not be there. It’s up to them what happens now. I mean, it’s not going to be [tape irregularity] whether they’re there or not.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: But if they are there, it’s going to be far better than if they’re not — I mean, they’re going to have a chance to make things a lot better if they’re there. My instructions were to kill and destroy [tape irregularity], I’m telling you. mean, and by killing and destroying, I’m going to torture them, Dave.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Because that’s what June has done to me. She has tortured me –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — and she’s gonna know that you can’t [tape irregularity]. I’ll tell you one thing that Jordy has no idea about, and that’s what love means. He doesn’t even have the remotest idea. He can’t learn it from June. She doesn’t know what it means. She has no conception of what it means.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So maybe, you know, I can get (inaudible) teach him that. I don’t know.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah [tape irregularity].

MR. CHANDLER: Part of it [tape irregularity] other people and communicating, and those are three things that must be in place in order for a loving relationship to exist, because all of those things show that you care about that other person. Not one thing [tape irregularity].

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but it was there.

MR. CHANDLER: No, I don’t think it ever was, now that I –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — look at her behavior, I’m just saying that June is a brilliant and pathologic personality.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: What you see on the surface ain’t even remotely related to what’s really going on underneath.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: And I believe that that will come out in lie detector [tape irregularity] psychological evaluations –

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: — which they’re all gonna have to do.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: So –

MR. SCHWARTZ: And you think that’s good for Jordy?

MR. CHANDLER: I think that in the long run would — of course it’s not the best thing for Jordy.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: The best thing for Jordy would be for everybody to sit there and peaceably resolve amongst themselves [tape irregularity], but because they’re not willing to do that, I’m not allowed to have a say in what the best [tape irregularity]. I’m not even allowed to [tape irregularity] Jordy is. I’m not allowed to have a say in anything about Jordy. So when you ask me that question [tape irregularity] I would welcome them to do that, but they don’t care. They don’t care about what I think, so they don’t ask me that question. Do I think — I mean, just to answer your question, I think that [tape irregularity] for Jordy either way in the short [tape irregularity], in the short term.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: I think in the long term he’s got a [tape irregularity] a chance of being a happy human being if I do what I have to do than if I let things go the way they are. Could a compromise be worked out? Possibly.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. Let them convince me as to why [tape irregularity] tell me I’m wrong. Let them show me how Jordy’s benefitting and not being harmed. They got their chance.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: If they don’t want it, they haven’t wanted to take it before.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: They’ve had four or five times that I’ve called them [tape irregularity] haven’t wanted to get in a conversation with me about it, and I believe they don’t want to get in a conversation with me about it is because they know they can’t defend their position.

MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: [tape irregularity] to cut — I mean, I’m young, I’m really liberal. As far as I’m concerned, anybody could do anything they want. That’s my philosophy. You guys can do whatever you want. Just be happy. Don’t get hurt. So . . .

(End of Tape , Side B.)

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